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Muschamp and Saban, Undisciplined Players.

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Muschamp and Saban, Undisciplined Players.

Postby Okeechobee Joe » Sat Jan 12, 2013 4:25 pm

There has been a lot made on this board about how disciplined Alabama looked in contrast to some of the taunting and undisciplined behavior of some of the Gator players in the game against Louisville. There has been a lot of comment that this is on the coaches. I would say that is only partly true. It is also on the players. That is why Muschamp has made so much about trying to recruit not just talented players, but players who are men of good character.

To say that Muschamp is not aware of the problem or looks the other way is just not true. You can talk and talk and preach and preach to certain kids and they just won't listen. Here Shawn Abel, the former head football coach at Collierville High School in Memphis who went through some of the same things Muschamp is going through, and this guy just lost it in the locker room after being pushed to the edge by his players who would kept making stupid penalties, kept getting called for personal fouls, kept playing out of position, did not carry out their assignments, and kept drawing attention to themselves with show boat taunting.


He Can't Take It Anymore

A player on the team recorded this on a phone and it made it to the internet. The coach was exactly fired, but he did turn in his resignation. Don't get the wrong impression about this coach. After this incident he was contrite and apologetic. He doesn't look anything like the character on the You Tube video. He is a clean cut intelligent well-spoken man, a graduate of Rhodes College (formerly Southwestern) in Memphis which is a well respected highly ranked liberal arts school.

I think the coach did need to be more in control. But I don't think this should have led to him losing his job. It was something apparently these high school kids needed to hear. Most of the people who have commented on this have also agreed that the coach should not have lost his job.

Nick Saban says that his job is to load the players on the bus and then throw some of them off the bus. What he means by that is that he has to recruit highly talented players to Tuscaloosa, but if he discovers he has made a mistake and a player who is a problem behavior player ends up on the team, then Saban is going to throw him off the bus, get rid of him. He sent those two Tide players who were having two much fun in Miami back to Tuscaloosa on the bus.

Saban will not tolerate this stuff on his team. He knows that a bad attitude player affects other players around him. He coaches his players to have a positive attitude. He knows that positive attitudes breeds positive attitudes and that a player with a good attitude can affect other in a positive way, but that a bad attitude player can affect everyone else in a negative way.

Saban is a CEO type who manages every aspect of his football program top to bottom. No one is doing this better right now in college football than Nick Saban. Back in 2007 after Alabama went 7-6 in Saban's first year and there were a lot of disciplinary problems left over from the Mike Shula era, Saban hired a consultant firm out of Seattle called the Pacific Institute to come to Tuscaloosa and look over the Alabama program Pete Carroll when he was at Southern Cal was actually the first college coach who hired this outfit, and Saban who knew Carroll well called him about it. The Pacific Institute works with companies, organizations, businesses around the world to tell them how to gain control of their work force, foster positive attitudes, and be the best that they can be. They are in the mental attitude management business.

Here is the link to the web page of the Pacific Institute: http://www.thepacificinstitute.us/v2/ Once you go the web page click on the "Sports Solutions" icon on the lower left of the screen.

Saban copycats are and will be coming out of the woodwork. Bob Stoops saying "he wants exactly what Alabama got" has signed on. Jimbo Fisher has signed up Florida State. Other schools that have signed on including the University of Washington and the University of Arizona. What works in Tuscaloosa will not necessarily work in these other places. And these other coaches, while they may be good, aren't Nick Saban.

I am sure that we are bringing in people who talk to the players about attitude. And I know Coach Muschamp and Coach Dilman and other stress this sort of thing to our players. Because of Saban's success there are going to be a lot of coaches who are going to look at what he is doing and Alabama and they are going to try to copy that. You can hire the Pacific Institute or if you are on a budget you might want to get the Memphis high school coach to come and talk to your team.
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Re: Muschamp and Saban, Undisciplined Players.

Postby Mr. Eko » Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:06 pm

Joe, I always love your posts but I'm not sure what your point is (I'm kinda slow that way). I look at the Sugar Bowl as a bit of an anomoly to the 2013 season. Much like the Alabama/Hawaii Bowl Game in 2008. I thought UF's 2013 Sugar Bowl was the odd game out including some of the Personal Fouls. Yes, I know some of the UF players committed them during the season but 'The Coach Boom Stare' seemed to work quite well.

If the players are learning anything, it's that Coach Boom doesn't tolerate the dirty personal fouls well or CONTINUED rule breaking. When Jen. Jenkins got kicked off the team, it seemed players and fans went OHHHH, there's a new coach in town now!

If the dirty fouls continues to occur, then I guess Coach Boom will click onto the link you provided.

As for jumping offsides, I'll cut the offense some slack having 3 OCs in 4 years. After all, no team was more guilty of that then Spurrier's Gator teams and they seemed to do OK. Granted, Pease's offense in 2013 left little room for error, but I believe the team will straighten it out with the same OL coach for 2 years straight.
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Re: Muschamp and Saban, Undisciplined Players.

Postby GatorInKnox » Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:06 pm

I see nothing wrong with that sound clip
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Re: Muschamp and Saban, Undisciplined Players.

Postby CapitalGator02 » Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:13 pm

Just send them to the Lawtey Correctional Institution and scare them straight. Seems to be the thing to do these days...
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Re: Muschamp and Saban, Undisciplined Players.

Postby Mr. Eko » Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:14 pm

GatorInKnox wrote:I see nothing wrong with that sound clip


Take out the 2 F-bombs and I think it was OK too. I wouldn't have fired the coach over that tirade.
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Re: Muschamp and Saban, Undisciplined Players.

Postby Okeechobee Joe » Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:48 pm

Mr. Eko wrote:Joe, I always love your posts but I'm not sure what your point is (I'm kinda slow that way). I look at the Sugar Bowl as a bit of an anomoly to the 2013 season. I thought it was the odd game out including some of the Personal Fouls. Yes, I know some of the UF players committed them during the season but 'The Coach Boom Glare' seemed to work quite well.

If the players are learning anything, it's that Coach Boom doesn't tolerate the dirty personal fouls well or CONTINUED rule breaking. When Jen. Jenkins got kicked off the team, it seemed players and fans went OHHHH, there's a new coach in town now!

If the dirty fouls continues to occur, then I guess Coach Boom will click onto the link you provided.

As for jumping offsides, I'll cut the offense some slack having 3 OCs in 4 years. After all, no team was more guilty of that then Spurrier's Gator teams and they seemed to do OK. Granted, Pease's offense in 2013 left little room for error, but I believe the team will straighten it out with the same OL coach for 2 years straight.


The point of the post is that it is not always the coach's fault for undisiciplined play. Coaches like Nick Saban and Will Muschamp coach disciplined football, but you have to have coachable players in the first place. Urban Meyer recruited talented players to Florida. Despite a lot of my past comments about Coach Meyer, a lot of it was done in joking. I respect him as a very good coach. Even though he won two national championships he is, in my book, not a great coach but he is a very good one. But Meyer recruited based on the number of stars behind a player's name. He went all over the country recruiting what he thought were the best players. For the first time Florida was recruiting on a serious basis in other parts of the country -- the Northeast, Virginia and elsewhere and we were leaving our traditional recruiting base of Florida, some in Georgia, occasional Louisiana. And then what happened with all of this talent. Bad apples got in here. Meyer lost control of the program.

Saban recruited not just talented players, but he recruited with a sharp eye on character also. Saban and Meyer built up powerhouses. It was an arms race between Alabama and Saban and Florida and Meyer like the US and the USSR. Then Saban beat Meyer in the SEC Championship Game. Urban, like the old Soviet Union, was made out to be a paper tiger and Urban collapsed.

This is the difference between Saban and Meyer. Meyer would say I want to recruit the fastest team in America. I want to win the SEC. Saban would never say these things. Saban would say, I want to first recruit a team of champions then we will worry about championships. For Saban it is a process. Proccess orientation and not outcomes orientation. Saban would never say like Spurrier when Spurrier was hired at Florida "I guarantee you we will lead the SEC in passing". Saban would say that is not a goal that is an outcome. The goal should be let's not have the fastest team in America, let's have players who are of good character, who are disciplined who play their positions, carry out their assignments. The emphasis is on team not individuals. Individuals try to make a big hit, a big play, but then take off the next down. They call attention to themselves by taunting and jawing.It's all about them.

O.k. what are you going to do. A lot of these modern athletes are from broken homes. Bear Bryant used to always talk about being disciplined and building character. But when Bryant started out the culture was different although the culture did change dramatically before Bryant retired and died. Bryant changed with the times. A favorite saying of Bryant's was that he wanted to get player's who had good mommas and daddies meaning they came from good solid homes and had good characters. Bobby Dodd over a Georgia Tech used to say to recruits' parents "if you send me a good boy to Tech, I'll send you a good boy back home." And moms and dads liked that. And they trusted sending their boys to Georgia Tech to be coached by Bobby Dodd and his assistant right hand man, Ray Graves.

But all of that has changed. Coaches now faced with a something else. Saban preaches the same stuff Bryant did. And Muschamp preaches the same thing. I used to think Saban was nothing like Bryant. They are very different on the surface. But when you listen to them, they teach the same thing, say a lot of the same stuff. But Saban lives in a different world than Bryant did. He is more of a CEO, briefcase type modern coach. He brings in consultants, experts, professional motivators, mind coaches, sports psychologists, that sort of thing. This is where entities like the Pacific Institute comes in.

You are going to hear a lot more about this stuff. With Nick Saban's success at Alabama there is going to be more talk about the process of building winning programs, less talk on outcomes. There is going to be more attention paid to character building, being accountable. The poor Memphis high school coach tried his best to discipline his team. He couldn't do it. So he lost it. Sometimes you need that kind of response. But there is already a lot more emphasis being put on character development from so-called professional experts. The Miami thug way was popular in its day. That has gone by the wayside, and now it is all about Nick Saban CEO. Everyone will want to copy him, but what works in Tuscaloosa will not necessarily work at other places. You can bring in all the professional counsellors and motivators you want to, but the head coach still has to be intelligent, able to relate to players, be his own man, an individual. Saban is all of those things. So is Mushamp. So are all the great coaches. But some coaches think they can just go out and sign up with the Pacific Institute, or some like organization, and then they will start winning. That is not true.
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Re: Muschamp and Saban, Undisciplined Players.

Postby #1GATOR FAN » Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:25 pm

Sure is a lot if Saban love on this board
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Re: Muschamp and Saban, Undisciplined Players.

Postby Beauregard » Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:09 pm

You can preach Saban's discipline of players, his CEO approach, his use of consultant firms, his process-oriented philosophy, and whatever else. All of that makes a difference. But you know what? The main difference between his program and others is that the MF'er simply has the best players in the country coming in every year. That's where it starts. More power to him for being that good of a recruiter, but let him coach average talent for the next five years and you won't hear #### about all that other stuff.

If I am another college coach trying to achieve Saban's success, I don't want to bring some egghead from the Pacific Institute to look around and tell me things. Instead, I want Saban's 5 star studs out on my football field. I want players that are bigger, faster and stronger than everyone else's - and Saban has a roster full of those guys.
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Re: Muschamp and Saban, Undisciplined Players.

Postby divits888 » Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:21 pm

#1GATOR FAN wrote:Sure is a lot if Saban love on this board


It’s getting ri-f***ing-diculous.
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Re: Muschamp and Saban, Undisciplined Players.

Postby ncargat1 » Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:12 pm

#1GATOR FAN wrote:Sure is a lot if Saban love on this board


Respect, not Love. He is a D#%k.
If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my child may have peace.
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Re: Muschamp and Saban, Undisciplined Players.

Postby Gouryella » Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:33 pm

Saban is one of the best college coaches of all-time.

Titles at two SEC schools and 4 in eight or nine years? Nuts.

CEO, dictator....whatever...great is great.
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Re: Muschamp and Saban, Undisciplined Players.

Postby #1GATOR FAN » Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:54 pm

I get it I guess, but it really is getting to the point if it ain't done like Saban then it's wrong. I wanna be better than Saban not be Saban

Soon it will be if you don't wipe your a** just like he does your doing it wrong lol.
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Re: Muschamp and Saban, Undisciplined Players.

Postby alcoholica » Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:59 pm

i think the point of this post is the reason there is so much attrition. It's mostly Meyer's guys going. Those leaving out of Muschamp's class were really just his first class (for the most part) and happened before they really even started the season. Meyer was known for recruiting low character/high talent guys, with few exceptions. I would not be surprised if JJ had issues (not saying he did), but just because someone is quiet, it doesn't make them a good guy. Muschamp has done a great job of turning the program around, but he's got a couple years to go before we can expect great things. If they come early great, but i don't feel this season should get our expectations too high. Although, I hope 10 win season become a regular thing quickly.
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Re: Muschamp and Saban, Undisciplined Players.

Postby Mr. Eko » Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:03 am

Beauregard wrote:You can preach Saban's discipline of players, his CEO approach, his use of consultant firms, his process-oriented philosophy, and whatever else. All of that makes a difference. But you know what? The main difference between his program and others is that the MF'er simply has the best players in the country coming in every year. That's where it starts. More power to him for being that good of a recruiter, but let him coach average talent for the next five years and you won't hear #### about all that other stuff.
If I am another college coach trying to achieve Saban's success, I don't want to bring some egghead from the Pacific Institute to look around and tell me things. Instead, I want Saban's 5 star studs out on my football field. I want players that are bigger, faster and stronger than everyone else's - and Saban has a roster full of those guys.



Michigan State??

Honestly Joe, if the Pacific group can make selfish players less selfish, I'm for bringing them in.

Having worked in Human Services for quite a few years, the Process vs. Outcomes model is not new. I find it interesting that it has been applied to football. But Beauregard is right, Give me great players and I have a better chance of being great.

During the 2009 season, Florida was on a rollercoaster with Tebow getting hurt, Spikes' eye-gouging, etc. I remember the regular season as being joyless, and I believe the players felt it too. If UF and Bama played a month later with both teams rested, it would have been a great game to behold.

I'm not saying UF would have won, I'm saying they would have put forth a much more relaxed yet intense effort.

My point is that UF might have very well won that game. That would be Meyer with 3 NCs in 4 years not Saban. Everybody would then look to Meyer's way of doing things. As good as BAMA was in 2009, they were NOT much better (if at all) than UF but Bama kicked UF's butt because UF was a tired listless team that day. Just like Bama looked playing TAMU this year.

If history is written by the victors, then the way to play football is written by the Coach with the most recent (many) National Championships.

As an aside, though I do think Saban is an excellent coach, the way Saban lied and classlessly acted towards my beloved Miami Dolphins, He can kiss my Aqua &... Orange & Blue A$$!!!

GATORS!!! :flag: :helmet:
Last edited by Mr. Eko on Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Muschamp and Saban, Undisciplined Players.

Postby Mr. Eko » Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:49 am

#1GATOR FAN wrote:I get it I guess, but it really is getting to the point if it ain't done like Saban then it's wrong. I wanna be better than Saban not be Saban

Soon it will be if you don't wipe your a** just like he does your doing it wrong lol.


i DO wipe my A$$ like Saban....still don't make as much money! :(
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Re: Muschamp and Saban, Undisciplined Players.

Postby ALG8ter » Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:45 am

I am going to preface my post by saying that I realize the Muschamp era of UF football is still being written. That being said I am glad someone brought this topic up because I also noticed some of our players disturbing behaviors during the bowl loss.

I have watched UF for a while and admit that penalties have always been a problem from Spurrier through Meyer. It looks as if they have continued through Muschamp. I am not here to gush on Saban although I do respect and recognize what he has built. I think there are many reason for his success (good coaching, superb talent evaluator, limitless resources, etc....)

I think one of the most important things Bama has done is create a culture where the players are accountable and everything is earned not given. those players know that the coach expects perfection and if it is not given they are out. Same mindset of the New England Patriots. I don't see the foolish penalties and childish grandstanding from the Bama players. Sure they celebrate but for the most part they act as if they have been there before and then its on to the next play. They certainly don't act like that when they are getting their butt spanked. I'm sorry but I do think that is on the coaches. If they are not making clear to the players what the expectations are.....then letting some of them ride the pine would bring the message home.

Our depth is much better now. Perhaps this is something that they can do now to foster a sense of ownership among the players. Better competition and more attention to detail.
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Re: Muschamp and Saban, Undisciplined Players.

Postby alcoholica » Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:59 am

I don't know what people expect when the team leaders can't wait to leave. Elam and Bostic acted like they were more focused on hitting someone than making a play. Not saying the coaching staff doesn't share some blame, but lets get Meyer's guys out the door before we criticize Muschamp so much. BTW, Easley is one of our worst offenders, so don't expect much difference next year, since he will be a team leader.

The difference at Bama was that Shula left Saban a pretty decent team, and far less bad apples.
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Re: Muschamp and Saban, Undisciplined Players.

Postby Jrcurtis » Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:50 am

One thing, that people miss, when criticizing Muschamp - Meyer did not have Saban to contend with when he had his great seasons, at UF. What would Meyer have accomplished, had he came in when Muschamp did. There's a very good possibility that Saban would have gotten Tebow, Spikes, Percy, etc.. That's why Meyer folded and ran, when he did, IMHO. Meyer knew that he was not on the same level as Saban; especially, without Mullen and Strong. One must consider all of these things when forming expectations. I am convinced, as are many experts, that Muschamp will have UF back at the top and if Saban remains at Bamerville, there will be some epic battles over the next several years. Fortunately for us, Muschamp is young and Saban will not be a Bamer much longer, IMHO!
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Re: Muschamp and Saban, Undisciplined Players.

Postby mtn2top » Sun Jan 13, 2013 2:59 pm

There is a fine line between having a team emotionally ready to compete in a game and just turning them lose in a physical frenzy orchestrated play by play (sometimes in between). I don't recall too many choir boys on any team I played on in my youth.

Most coaches will tolerate some penalties for aggression, especially from the defense. There's never an excuse for dumb personal fouls, such as slugging another player. When a second stringer goes out and slugs someone, that's on the coaches. The player should know unequivocally - that behavior will warrant an automatic bench warming at minimum.

I think Muschamp got the message loud and clear from the Sugar Bowl. I expect an improvement in the behavior and demeanor of out team moving forward. Let's save the swagger for when we are playing well - not when we are being dominated by an underdog.

Coaches are teachers and have to use many methods to be effective. Once you go over the edge there's not much left to do. The best coaches save the ballistic tirade for when it's really needed.
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Re: Muschamp and Saban, Undisciplined Players.

Postby gatorspook » Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:17 pm

Saban has a secret weapon: motivational psychologist Kevin Elko is practically on the staff. This guy is great.
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